EP #40 Trends that marketers should adopt post-Apple’s MPP

EP #40 Trends that marketers should adopt post-Apple’s MPP

About this Podcast

In today’s special episode of the “For The Love Of Emails” Podcast, we welcome Chaitanya Chinta, Global Head of the email business at Netcore Cloud. Chaitanya has over 14 years of experience in building anti-spasm filters, operations and monitoring, and analytics and deliverability solutions. His area of expertise is email deliverability. He is also Pepipost’s Co-Founder and Deliverability Expert. He presently heads all of Netcore’s email business teams. The podcast was hosted by Matthew Vernhout, VP of deliverability at Netcore Cloud.

Quick Snapshots
This podcast focuses on:
Understanding the distinct impact of Apple MPP on different markets
Why is it important to adopt new metrics beyond open rates?
How marketers are using gamification to engage better with customers?
AMP and its positive impact on email campaigns
Trends on customer data collection and segmentation
Episode Transcripts

Intro (00:09): You’re listening to the “For The Love Of Emails” podcast, powered by Netcore, a weekly show dedicated to helping email marketers, marketing enthusiasts, and professionals of all walks engage, grow, and retain customers through reliable, innovative, and effective email communication and engagement. Discover actionable ways to increase ROI and deliver value through email innovations, personalisation, optimisation, email deliverability, and email campaigns.No fluff tune in to hear best practices and tactical solutions from the best thought leaders and practitioners master your email communication now.

Matthew Vernhout (00:42):

Welcome, everybody to the For The Love of email podcast. I’m your host, Matthew Vernhout, Direct Vice President of deliverability here with Netcore in North America. I have a wonderful guest with me today. An expert in email works very hard to keep the email business here at Netcore moving and, and working as a great guest. His name is Chaitanya Chinta. He is the head of the email business for Netcore. CC, welcome to the show. Thanks for joining me today.


Chaitanya Chinta (01:18):

Hey Matt! A pleasure being here. It, it’s a great show to be on. Yeah, looking forward to it.

Matthew Vernhout (01:26):

Today, we’re gonna chat around the changes that the industry has been seeing over the last several months in relation to Apple’s mail privacy protection services. We’re gonna discuss some trends, what we’re seeing, what marketers should be thinking about in regards to modifying their email programs and really sort of where we’re seeing these impacts globally. Being a global company, operating in 26 countries now I believe. Fantastic growth and, and things happening and, and MPP really has had impacts in some markets more than others. So we’re gonna dive right into that. But first let’s just, you know, for those listening, let’s just talk about what MPP is and how it came about being. So CC, do you wanna describe that for us?

Chaitanya Chinta (02:19):

Yeah. I know you are the best in this Matt, being a privacy professional yourself, having you’ll be the best one to describe this, but lemme give it a shot, nevertheless. Right. So, see Apple has introduced a privacy feature and this is most, mostly goal towards the end-users, right? So, protecting their privacy is the, you know, core motto of Apple. So, what they’ve done is, let’s say, whenever the user opens the email, so basically ask the user permission, whether it be, whether you want the sender to track the email or do not want the sender to track the emails. So, I think, this feature was introduced around September, mid of September. From then on, we have seen about 95% of people saying that, you know, you know, we don’t want the senders to track our opens and clicks or when, when we are opening and clicking the data. So, what Apple has done essentially is to proxy all the links that are used as beacons, by the senders to track most of the emails marketers for today use these beacons for pixels, or, you know, they let you to track the track when the user is open the email and what device a user is open to some extent, you know, you can, you can get to know, the location of the user too, by the IP address, right. So, all of that has been sort of proxied now, meaning Apple, any, any user using Apple device, you, you, you know, you would be protected that way from the senders or the marketers that, that are sending emails to you from, from them tracking you, right? So that, that’s the change that Apple has bought in, and the adoption rate as you see, right, a 95% adoption rate significantly says there’s a strong sentiment from the user source or the end-users, that they don’t want the senders to track their activity on the web, not on their email.

Matthew Vernhout (04:26):

Yeah. I think some of the other, some of the other things to sort of look at when it comes to MPP is the conditions that it applies, right? So a user has to be on wifi, plugged in with the mail device open or sort of mail application open. So, there are a number of situations where, you know, for MPP to do its thing, you have to sort of have those prerequisites in, in place. And that tends to be, you know, based on the data that we’ve been seeing mostly at night. So, you know, people are at home, their phones are plugged-in, in, they’re going to sleep. Things are running in the background and open rates will spike significantly in those sort of midnight to 2:00 AM, midnight to 3:00 AM ranges for sort of Eastern standard time. So, you know, basically, overnight North America..

Chaitanya Chinta (05:18):

We need people to let their phones perform with charging, and when they sleep, right..

Matthew Vernhout (05:23):

Absolutely, that’s what I do every night. I like going in and, go to bed, letting it run overnight and charging up, cuz it’s usually about 5% by the time I’m ready for bed. So you know, looking at the trend over the last six months, that puts us right back to the beginning of September now that we’re here in March. You know, we were seeing open rates, pretty, you know, consistent. But what happened sort of say, you know, early October, right. That’s really, I think when things started to take off with MPP.

Chaitanya Chinta (06:00):

Yeah. So so what we’ve seen is naturally there’s, there’s an uptick in the open days. And for, for all our North American customers that way. So we’ve seen, let’s say for example, if a sender or if a brand used to get about, let’s say maybe 15% open rates in general, they started getting about, you know, 30-35% open rates, all of a sudden after, after Apple is introduced and especially as the adoption, they sort of took off. Right? So by, by December, I think the number sort of peaked, it sort of started gradually, it’s not like an overnight shift that has happened, but you know, within maybe first two, three months of rollout, we have seen open rates from the majority of the brands crossing a good 30 percentage and not for our North American customers, right. At the same time, the trend is not the same for customers from other regions, for example, from the Southeast Asian market, the brands from the Southeast Asian market, or even the middle east, as a matter of fact, right? The jump that we have seen is maybe from a, a, a 12 to 13 percentage open rate to maybe a 16-17% open rate. So that’s the shift that we have seen from brands that are from Southeast Asia or the middle east. Again, that number is again different from maybe what we’ve seen in the Indian market. So, in India, we use more than 80% of the firms that are Android. So, at least that’s the, you know, Android has a lot of penetration in India compared to any other region out there. Right? So we, we’ve seen, we’ve seen a limited impact that way when it comes to Apple MPP. We’ve seen about any, brand, which is typically getting about 10 to 12% open rates going about maybe 14 per cent. So that’s the about, you know, 15-20% impact that way. So that’s the impact that we’ve seen in the Indian markets. So again, this, this is sort of gives perspective to us across different regions the different impact that the brands have seen you due to Apple MPP.

Matthew Vernhout (08:18):

And that’s, I think something that not a lot of other people have been talking about is sort of the regional impact. A lot of the data I’ve seen talks very specific about North American audiences and, and the huge impact that this has had. And we are seeing that, like you said, in our North American audience, just, just totally, basically blown open right out of the water for a lot of brands. Whereas in like you were saying in India and sort of the emerging areas Southeast Asia and the middle east and such you know, it’s just not as impactful. And that just could be, you know, there’s maybe some cultural bias towards, you know, the Apple status, if you will. Or, you know, maybe there’s, there’s certainly some you know, other reasons I think, you know, people in, in North America love apple you know, it’s, it’s, you’re either an Android user or an Apple user, and it’s basically, you know, even in my family there’s that divide of, oh my God, I can’t believe you’re using the other phone. So, you know, there, there’s certainly some of that happens.

Matthew Vernhout (09:25):

But I think, you know, it’s important to look, you know, as a marketer where your subscribers are to understand that impact and to sort of look at you know, should you be treating the different markets differently? Should you be treating your North American audience different than your EU audience, different than your you know, India based audience and absolutely, I think you should be. And, and if you’re not tracking your data that way, absolutely start looking at it that way, because you’ll be able to still key off many of these important metrics that marketers have been used to all these years by looking more geographical than way. One of the other things I thought was interesting that you’d mentioned was sort of the way that Apple is proxying to get rid of that specific geolocation. Like they can no longer tell that, you know, I’m located in Toronto, they’re now looking at it as maybe you’re located in Southern Ontario. Right. So they’ve kind of spaced out the geo-specific location, which I think a lot of brands got really used to. And, and there were a lot of technologies that got used to the idea of being able to serve the closest store or current weather pattern for your region. What are you seeing when it comes to that type of behaviour and, and the shift for, for brands in relation to that loss of geo-specific data and having more, you know, geo-diverse data?

Chaitanya Chinta (10:53):

Yeah. See the impact that we’ve seen is you know, a lot of e-commerce brands that we work with they use a lot of, you know, behavioural and demographic data to, to when it comes to personalizing their content and, and most of this most of their offers that they go out that, that the users used to get is sort of dynamic in sort of, in some sense, it’s sort of there’s a real-time call that happens to be served and get, get the, get the data in that sense. Right. All of that is sort of gone for a, toss if you, if you, if you must in, in a sense that you know, the kind of personalization the brands could do before is is sort of changed now. There’s no real-time personalization.

Chaitanya Chinta (11:45):

You could still do some level of personalization, but it’s not true real-time personalization that you could probably do. So, from that aspect, I think a lot of those capabilities are sort of, you know, go for a toss with, with respect to Apple and not just that, right, not just that. There are other technologies that the market has typically used to give a better experience to their customers. For example, send-time optimization, you know, a send-time optimization, essentially you know targets the user when the user has the highest likelihood of opening the emails. But if you look at, if you would look at them, you know, open data now if you get an email at 2 am in the morning because of Apple opening the emails in the night right so, so that’s the, so, so most of these capabilities are sort of you know, that they’ve taken a hit that way. But that is, that is definitely an opportunity for brands to look beyond and use, you know, you know, put there, put creativity to the test to get a better understanding of their customers and not, not just look at open and click data, but look beyond, right.

Chaitanya Chinta (13:02):

There are a lot of metrics that brands can do, and a lot of creative things that brands are coming up with to keep the, keep their users engaged, keep their to, to target the users better. So, there are a lot of creative ways coming up with, with maybe a lot of zero party data collection that we have seen. There’s a, there’s a friendship that, that, that we’re seeing that a lot of these brands where they are sort of you know limited with respect to, you know, the kind of user data that they, that they can probably get from the typical ESP reports or typical reports that you get from in, in the form of opens and clicks. They’re moving towards gamifying emails to get users to click on the email, not just the open, they’re looking beyond now you getting the users to click on the email, and gamify the content to get better engagement.

Chaitanya Chinta (13:54):

You know, there there’s a lot of creativity happening in that direction from a brand standpoint. Right. yeah, so that’s, that’s from the brand standpoint and from so if you flip the situation to the ESP site, or, you know, what, what we at Netcore have been doing, right. So, see all the, all the AI technologies that, that typically work with open rate as one of the key metrics, right? So we are, we are sort of making a call to, you know, discard all the Apple opens or tag them differently. So, the marketer makes them, you know, call appropriately right. So, all the proxied opens or all the, in, in a way machine-generated, opens, we’re tagging them differently now. So, with the latest release of our product, I think both our email API, our email API now, and soon to be seen product are going to tag the Apple opens differently. So that, you know, there’s a clear distinction between there’s a machine and there’s a human open, there’s an actual human open that’s happening, that gives a marketer a perspective of, you know, what is the actual user interaction that’s happening instead of looking at all the, you know proxied and fake data, fake open data.

Matthew Vernhout (15:22):

Yeah. And I, I think even beyond just Apple MPPs, like talking with, with the product group, we’re gonna start looking at, you know, what is Google doing with image proxy? What is Yahoo doing with image proxy, right? There’s no point in stopping at just what Apple’s doing, right. Absolutely looking at, you know, what is Gmail doing and, and all of those different applications. Cause you know, we’re predicting, this is a future trend, right? People are gonna start doing this and paying more attention to privacy, paying more attention to consumers you know, protecting consumers from these types of things. Sort of what some people might consider evasive invasive behaviour you know, beyond turning off open rate tracking which we’ve seen some ESPs announce. I think it’s a little preemptive for throwing them away completely. You know, looking at changing your behaviour data, changing your targeting data to click time activity as opposed to open time activity, looking at secondary open, secondary click, secondary behaviour within a message certainly is something that, you know, brands and marketers I’ve been talking with are starting to consider is, you know, if I can’t tell when somebody opened, because MPP has hidden that, can I tell when they’ve clicked, can I en engage on that data?

Matthew Vernhout (16:44):

You know, beyond looking at some of the things that are the things that have broken that you’ve mentioned, right. Countdown timers are basically broken at this point, cuz they get cached at certain times you know, you can’t just sort of throw away through to that other audience, the non-Apple audience or the non-Apple device. You know, I might get my email on my phone, but through work, I also get it in an Outlook system. So, I’m reading it on two different platforms one’s impacted, one’s not. So, paying attention to that secondary activity will become more and more in part important. What other things, you know, should marketers be looking at, you know, when it comes to metrics? So like as assume we just decide open rates are, are so far inaccurate at this point, we’re gonna start ignoring, right. Click rates are great! But what other things are we seeing a shift in, behaviour and understanding when it comes to consumers behaviour and how marketers should be integrating that into their programs?

Chaitanya Chinta (17:53):

Yeah. I just, I’ll just take maybe a small step back, Matt. See, you said you know, turning of opens is, is not a great solution that way. Right? So, you know we are still, we are still far away from saying that opens are they’re, they are only part of they’re, they’re just, they’re just failing to fade away into nothing, but then there’s, there’s still time for it. And there’s still a significant percentage of you you know marketers out there who still want to track opens and, you know, they want to create their segments on the opens. There are a lot of non-Apple users still as you rightly said, it’s not going to stop at Apple. So, Google is going to do it. Yahoo is going to do it. And there I, I think we’ll see more and more other, you know mailbox providers will also jump onto the wagon and saying in order to protect the privacy of their users. That is sort of given, so that’s the direction that we are going at.

Chaitanya Chinta (18:57):

And I think like a marketer, or, as an industry, I think we need to, whether it is ESP or the marketer, I think we need to accept that. And then, you know, maybe while we make use of the metric, as long as it is available and it still makes some sense. But we still, I mean, from a future standpoint, we need to move away from open rate as a metric, and then maybe look at, look beyond let’s say click rate one exam one great example that you’ve given. Right. There are, there are other few changes that we have seen in terms of, you know, marketers making use of may be other levels of engagement data in, in, in order to get them to make sure, to, to see if the user is really engaging with their emails or not.

Chaitanya Chinta (19:47):

So, one form, one form that we’ve seen is, is in terms of as I said, you know, there’s a spike in brands looking at email, not just from offer driven campaigns, but specific campaigns to drive engagement, you know, and get the user to, I mean, again, gamification, right? So, like with, AMP coming into the picture, emails have not been a lot of emails are a lot more interactive now. In fact, we’ve seen one of the brands doing wordle in email, right. So, and we’ve played wordle, every one of us played wordle. Right. But then no, not, I think, you did not play right?

Matthew Vernhout (20:29):

I’m holding on, I’m not gonna lie.

Chaitanya Chinta (20:32):

Yeah. Yeah. So, so yeah, so wordle on email there, you know, a lot of gamified content out there, right? So there are some interesting use cases around gamification, you know, they’ve got a bunch of things that are happening on email and AMP has made them possible, but we’ve seen, we’ve seen brands. You know, there’s an increase in adoption with respect to AMP and with, with the direction of engagement-driven campaigns, then ROI driven campaigns that way, right. So that’s, that’s a directional shift that we’ve seen. And this is primarily to make sure that the users are engaged when they get the right kind of metrics from the user. Zero party data collection, we’ve spoken about it and there’s gamification in that too. Right. So let’s say, you know, what’s your favourite colour and answer it. And then you get some XYZ coupon, right?

Chaitanya Chinta (21:28):

So that’s the kind of gamification that we are seeing. At the same time, there’s stitching of data points from other properties and other channels together to make a unified picture of the customer. So that is also, that is also what’s happening. Let’s say if the user, you know, email, while, while I think a lot of mature brands have been doing it, but a lot of a small-time in midmarket level plans, let’s say, somebody who’s, you know, doing about maybe 3 million, 5 million, or maybe even 10 million emails a month, they would, you know, they were, they were not typically in the zone of stitching data together. They were still, you know, running programs in silos that way. So, all of that is coming together. Now making a clearer picture of the user, at least there’s at least there is a realization on the marketer side that, you know, segmenting on basic opens and clicks is no more going to click and they want, they want to get their holistic picture. And there’s a, there’s a, there’s a positive market movement in that direction is what we are seeing.

Matthew Vernhout (22:44):

So something I’ve been noticing and it’s, it’s been sort of a, a slow but long trend that that’s not necessarily related to MPP, but is, it is related to this idea of gathering better data is sort of that rise of a loyalty program, a rise of loyalty type data where you’re using, you know, either it’s a program that works across multiple businesses that then use that data to determine, you know, shopping behaviours, shopping times, the average spend of consumer and integrating that data back into their email program, or it becomes something that a brand itself has launched. That is, you know, they’re looking to augment user behaviour data with actual consumed behaviour data in regards to what are they purchasing? You know, where are they clicking on things? And it’s sort of frequency. Recently I was talking with, a retailer about, you know, our email program doesn’t necessarily drive people to buy online, but it does drive them to buy in-store and where they’re sort of losing some of that capability with MPP is that action of people are now opening the email, you know, MPP open.

Matthew Vernhout (23:59):

And it’s hard for them to associate that activity of the open because that’s now been proxied to did that consumer go into the store as well. And is that store drive based on the email, maybe that they’ve read. So there, there are certainly some things there that are happening that are making that association harder for marketers or attribution, if you will. But I think what we’ll continue to see is, is adoption in that space as well, driving you to know, better metrics for adoption. You know, maybe it’s, you’re putting coupons in email and it’s print this coupon. So, you can take that coupon or show this electronic coupon. Then you can actually attribute the email activity to the coupon, to the in-store purchase. You know, I, I predict we’ll start to see at least in the retail space, some more adoption that way for addressing that attribution model, that is, that is now becoming harder to associate between the email activity. When it comes to, you know, sort of looking at AMP.

Matthew Vernhout (25:09):

And you’ve been talking about, you talked about AMP and I, I love the idea of some of the things that we’ve seen with AMP, you know, simple things like even NPS type scores to, you know, how did you like this email, three smiley faces or three emoji faces, right. You know, good, bad, hated it, kind of thing, neutral, whatever the smiley faces you put in. You know, is that something that, what you think we’ll continue to see is that something I, I don’t see it as much sort of in the North American audience, but I know you deal a lot with our sort of India based customers and sort of customers and sort of the emerging markets. Are you seeing them adopting this more?

Chaitanya Chinta (25:48):

There’s, there’s definitely an increasing trend in the last, maybe five, six months that we’ve, that we’ve been on. Right. So, the journey with AMP has been sort of exciting that way. And there is see there, there, I mean, when you so the idea of AMP itself has been exciting since the beginning, like it’s been around for the, maybe three years now, but the idea of AMP itself has been exciting. But the only challenge when you talk to the practitioner is that you know, it takes time to create, it’s a new tech, it’s a lot of learning. There’s, there’s a steep learning curve there’s, you know, that’s that’s a traditional challenge which sort of limited the adoption. And I’m still, you know, keeping the maybe security concerns with respect to, you know, your personal data that, that gets shown in the AMP aside for the time being, right. So maybe, there are simplistic use cases that you can execute without any security repercussions there, but then yeah, that’s still, that that the overall sense of a steep learning curve, a new tech, and then hard to implement as well. It sort of delayed the overall adoption in terms of a market adoption standpoint, right?

Chaitanya Chinta (26:59):

So that, that has been shifting. That’s been shifting. And I think there are more clear use cases that are coming up while AMP, Apple MPP sort of gave a hard nudge to give that AMP a push there. But, a lot of email creation process with respect to AMP is becoming easier and easier. There are standard use cases that are coming up like NPS is a great example that you mentioned, right? So traditionally the only feedback that you would get from any marketing email is if the user likes it, if, if the user likes it, there’s a click on it, and then the user goes on the website or app some transaction out there, if, if there’s an internet sort of transaction or let’s say the user does, does not like it either it goes to a trash or it generates a complaint. So, either of you would have limited visibility into it.

Chaitanya Chinta (27:59):

You would have limited visibility into it. And there’s no other reaction from another kind of reaction that the users would give to the email. Right. But if, if it’s, and this is mainly for maybe content publishing websites or, you know, you can probably collect the NPS right within the email, but do you like the content in of the email? Do you like, is it, is it resonating with you right now? Or is it not, is it not good? At least you get a sense of the pulse of your customers, right? Within the email without actually, you know, I mean, this is sort of the third level of you know, feedback that maybe customers or end-users can give instead of just clicking or maybe you know, there’s a, there’s a, at least you will get a feedback. And based on that, that’ll service, maybe an input to marketers to marketers to you know, re-look at their strategy if they need to, in terms of, you know, getting better content for their users. And, and we’ve seen, we’ve seen this kind of strategy being adopted in the publishing side of it. There is a publishing news publishing, new news and media publishing or content publishing websites adopting to this kind of strategy. And now they’re seeing at least they’re getting a pulse of the users that way. And a small portion of users usually react. It’s not like you’ll get a huge reaction, but you will still get a pulse.

Matthew Vernhout (29:27):

When it comes to things like, like you’re saying, obviously you test the waters. Did you like this content? Did you like the messaging in this content, you know, do you predict that we’ll see a trend of more preference centres, more content specialization within messages, and more segmentation as people start to collect this sentiment data to say like, you know, this user really likes content A, but they’re not so hot on content B. Are you, are you foreseeing that becoming more of a trend for brands, to segment better? Is that something you would recommend in order to combat some of this MPP, you know, sort of call it a data hole if you will because the data is now much more obscure?


Chaitanya Chinta (30:14):

Absolutely, absolutely. This, this is a trend is according to me is definitely going to take off at least the, in the Eastern markets, we are seeing a trend that trend to catch up already. We, we are, we are looking at brands using AMP to, to do some of the interesting use cases to get, you know, see preference centres have always been there. I mean, they’ve been there since I was a kid, right? But what’s, what’s happening with preference centres is not many users would actually go and, you know, update their preferences. The only reason why I would probably go, go to a preference centre is that’s about it, right. That’s the usual tendency, but with AMP there’s an increase there’s a gamified preference centre, that’s that sort of catching up where we are seeing brands creating interesting use cases where using gamification to generate interest and use that.

Chaitanya Chinta (31:20):

I mean, use that preference for personalization of subsequent campaigns that they send out. So that’s one interesting use case that’s happening. The other use case is collecting NPS on the content on, on some specific you know, product or service you know, that’s, that’s one thing that, so that, that sort of catching up, right? So this is a trend is definitely going to continue. I see and we are seeing better results. It’s not just brands, just implementing it. We are seeing better results than the regular campaigns, when the use case is done right, AMP email can generate 3X the engagement than a regular email. In some cases, we’ve seen about 5X the engagement but the use case has to be right, a simple, maybe you know, a simple use case, which does not really, you know, short circuit, the overall customer journey does not really generate a lot of engagement with that.

Matthew Vernhout (32:28):

Awesome. Thanks very much for that. When it, you know, just as we approach sort of the end of time here with our, our show today you know, I just, any final thoughts that you would give to brands to deal with the sort of we’ll call it Email 2.0, or are we already at 3.0 because of things like you know, the use and rise of AMP and things, you know, privacy services like MPP. There are other services like you know, I think it was Duck basically said, you know, we’re not gonna allow any pixel tracking at all. We’re just gonna remove them from emails completely. So, this is sort of a, a rise in that, the privacy of consumers which has been an ongoing trend for a long time. But any final thoughts for the people listening out there in regards to, you know, how do you address MPP? What should they be focusing on if they’re not paying attention to it now? If you’re in one of those markets where this isn’t really a big impact at the moment, you know, should they be expecting this in the near future? Just sort of a summary of thoughts from you?

Chaitanya Chinta (33:42):

See. As it opens, opens is, is, is going to be, it’s on its way to fading away, right? So that’s, that’s definitely something, harsh truth that I think every marketer needs to acknowledge and prepare for it. I think some of the some of, I mean, some of the preparations have already been started in that way that, you know, segregating the open rate, looking at the real opens, maybe machine-generated opens, is, is one way of looking at it. But putting the, I mean, while this is sort of sophisticated brands have started using maybe AMP or using a lot of creative measures to know better about their customers. I think that that as a trend needs to really, you know, I think every marketer needs to look at that if, if not opens, what are the other creative ways that I can probably use to know more about my, about my customer and give better experience.

Chaitanya Chinta (34:48):

So that’s, that’s one area that I, I probably recommend all the marketers to look, look at, and there are technologies available. AMP is just one technology that we’ve spoken about. There are many technologies that are available today, which can help marketers to you know gather that data, stitch this data together and, you know, give the right kind of view of their customers. So that’s one area that I probably recommend. The other idea, the other thought is I think email, email being a high ROI, you know, driven channel you know, you, you, you cannot, you cannot ignore in a way that, you know, you, you, I mean, you cannot ignore your customer preferences and maybe introduce gamification introduce you know, again, period thoughts in your, your overall email program to, to sort of get better engagement and move, move your email strategy, not just from ROI driven campaigns, but have an engagement-driven strategy specifically to, to, to try this. Yeah. These are the two broader recommendations probably that I probably have. Yeah.

Matthew Vernhout (36:13):

Okay. Thanks very much for that. And thanks for joining us today, this has been a great discussion. You know, I love talking about privacy. I love talking about email and when those two worlds collide, it just is, always a fantastic discussion. So, thanks again for joining us. Our listeners out there, just want to give you sort of advanced notice. We are about to release the Netcore 2022 email benchmark report. This is a benchmark report that covers 5 geographical regions across 19 industries and studies over 100 billion emails that have been sent. Be among the first to benefit from this report. You can reserve a copy if you will, at the link in the description below for this show. If you read the notes, the show will include a link. And we hope that you do look at these benchmark numbers understanding, you know, each program is unique, but as an overall directional data, this is some really interesting input to look at trends and behaviours across the different industries and verticals that we’ve been monitoring. So, thank you again for joining us. Thank you for listening. Please do hit the subscribe button and follow along with your favourite podcasting solution. Whichever platform you’re currently listening to us on. It’s been great talking with you today, CC and I look forward to future conversations along the same line.

Chaitanya Chinta (37:43):

Yeah. Pleasure being here, Matt. And always happy to talk to you.


Matthew Vernhout (37:49):

Well, thanks again, everyone! Have a great time.

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