MartechBrain | E12 – Bibaswan Banerjee – New Ideas in Personalisation

In this episode, Rajesh Jain speaks to Bibaswan Banerjee, Director CRM Strategy and User Analytics at Klook Singapore, about “New Ideas in Personalisation.”

Transcript:

Rajesh(Host): Hi everyone, welcome to Martech brain, a  Netcore initiative where we speak to the best brains and martech and delve deep into one topic. My guest today is Bibaswan Banerjee, director CRM strategy and user analytics at Klook in Singapore. Bibaswan previously worked with Airtel in India, Grabb and Hooq. A JV between Warner Brothers and Sony in Singapore. It’s chosen topic for discussion today is Omni-channel personalization or if I sort of expand it in the right way, it’s personalization at scale across multiple consumer touch points on and off platforms and Bibaswan has very interesting thoughts on personalization, and they will probably not be very obvious. He has got some new angles which are going to talk about today. So welcome to Martech brain Bibaswan.

Bibaswan(Guest): Thanks Rajesh, thanks for having me.

Rajesh: So my first question to you is when everyone talks about personalization, Omni-channel personalization here, tell us what’s different about your thinking and how should we be doing it, right?

Bibaswan: Yeah. Sure. So I think you know, this is not a new topic. It’s been like we tend to death personalization, omni-channel orchestration. It’s at all of this. It’s just that you know over my career what I have, you know, come to realize is that you know people look at one aspect of personalization and get too fixated with it. So for instance are most people when they think I’m think about personalization think about recommender systems, right. So they think about okay will show a bunch of things which the consumer may like and we have a higher chance of driving conversion rates and down from the revenue and so on. But actually there is a lot more to personalization Beyond just let’s say a recommender system. So there are you know, in fact in fact, it’s the one part of the problem where a lot of work has gone into, There are loads of plug-and-play systems, where you know companies and Brands can get you know, off-the-shelf recommender systems into their product, but then there are other aspects of it. One key aspect that is becoming a very big problem in the e-commerce Industries offer management, right? So what is the next best offer for the consumer? Because if you look at e-commerce today, consumers can like expect they’ll have a promo code, They have a coupon code, they will get some cashback, they will get something or the other right and it’s kind of like bait into the purchase funnel. It’s an integral part of the purchase journey, and it’s and the way marketers or business owners. Look at it is it’s kind of like already there in the strategy that we have to you know, at least give a perceived discount to the consumer. So there is a pricing strategy behind it. What are the mechanics of offering such a discount? Is it via cashback or do we get something which is flat off? Right? And typically the problem is like we can afford to give up to X percentage of, which is Sitting in somewhere between a range of Y and z-axis kind of like the sweet spot in between, some consumers get more. Sometimes you must get less for some the mechanics are different some get it as a cash back some get it has a straight away, you know flat discount. So personalization, is that as well. It is not just what you know, we are suggesting You by but at what price and what we are we are trying to like, you know structure the package. So that’s one aspect of it. Second is like the whole marketing mix, you know, we have so many channels and more and more coming up. So for instance now you have like shopping over live streaming, which is a very big deal in China, getting very big in Southeast Asia and will probably be in India as well when we have 5G, you know coming and so with so many different channels and touch points, you know, it’s pretty confusing for the marketer and the marketing business owner. Where do we invest right? So because the marketing dollars are somewhat fixed and that’s where there’s a second layer of personalization where we have to decide which segments are best marketed lower a certain Channel. So that is again sitting alongside your problem of offer management or Revenue management as I spoke about and the recommender aspect which has been you have discussed to death. So I think these three things are not very fundamental to it and then also like the overall consumer Journey on the product, right? So, you know, there can be certain pages or landing page experiences which are very, you know, very different for a certain segment of consumers, but that again fits probably into the Omni-channel scope that we started discussion with. So Omni-channel essentially refers to having a unified and messaging for the consumer across all the various touch points  mail app notifications whatever else we have landing page banners on platform banners. So this is also an aspect of personalization but again, I think the industry overall has made a lot of progress on this and people do tend to think of these things once personalization is mentioned. But yeah, I would just like to conclude my answer to this question saying that Omni-channel personalization has been there for quite some time. The industry has made progress, but obviously there are things where we can get a lot better similarly for recommender systems a lot has been done but again A lot can be done more right where as I think there is not as much progress is the offer and revenue management aspect of it because these things are guarded very closely by companies because you know, there is an aspect of strategy and very sensitive items related to pricing which companies don’t tend to trust outside parties with so the Plug and Play aspect of recommender systems tends to go away at this level and also the broader marketing mix modelling, like how do I invest on SEM, How do I invest on social, How do I invest on the own media, KOL influencers. AI has a pretty big role to play on this but probably we haven’t progressed as much as we have on the aspects that I just discussed.

Rajesh: I think that’s a great overview. So essentially what you’re saying is that there are four aspects two of which sort of are there which marketers tend to think about and two are not. The two are recommendation system and ensuring that personalization should cover all channels from each.

Bibaswan: But we don’t do it properly. Don’t get me wrong. It’s not that the racket.

Rajesh: Yeah, we’re going to cover that also and will come to the that, but there are two new ideas that you’re bringing him to play in a way that marketers should also bring into their mix. First is this idea around offer and revenue management and we will talk about that and second is the modelling the marketing mix, so which segments, which channels etcetera. So, let’s start with the offer and revenue management part. So what you’re basically saying is that not only is it about just identifying which product but also, what is the price point pricing, what is the discount. Now I think becomes out what you think and that’s an important element of how you communicate to the customer. Why is this not really looked upon as personalization per se like sometimes it’s missed out. I mean people think it’s the next best action, what is it next best offer? What is it if we send this out and send that out to send that offer? Why is this thing I missed out today?

Bibaswan: Hey, it’s a tough problem. I guess the answer to that is like, you know company start on this journey. They do realize it’s getting increasingly important. So, you know, there is brand loyalty is wavering in some of the more hotly contested sectors, especially for instance in travel like flights and hotels are basically Commodities. So how do you drive any kind of differentiation on this? So similarly, you know in any sector where where there is, you know, the product of the offering is not really driven by the consumer is not back because of brand loyalty or because of something that is setting a particular company apart. These things become integral Tools in driving the ad conversion. So that realization is there I wouldn’t go as far as saying that people don’t know this but actually, you know getting it done is something  is of is a far more complex challenge. So people tend to look at pricing strategy as something which is more higher, overarching like, you know for certain products or certain categories like this is the range within which I am offering but about after Certain point because you know these teams tend to operate within ROI constraints that you know, this is the envelope that I’m operating in within the constraint of such-and-such ROI to eke out that extra performance, people need to go at far more granular levels where you have to look at user groups certain segments will probably be a little bit more accommodating. So essentially the price elasticity part of it and not just the price elasticity, but also the offer mechanics maybe some people are willing to take a cash back in the wallet, right? So which essentially translates to discount given on a future purchase not on the current one. However, some people will only convert if that discount is baked into the price of the current product which probably has a, you know, residual LTV down the line. So coming to that level of detail and having the analytical backbone to support it and make it actionable for end users is something that is increasingly is increasingly looked upon as a top problem, people are investing in it, but we haven’t yet gotten there, that’s what I want to say.

Rajesh: How can companies do this right? So, one clarification before that, are you also saying that essentially two different people for the same product could actually get two different price points, two different offers? Is that also is possible or just we are saying that?

Bibaswan: Yeah, so I don’t think it is going to be possible to get to that individual consumer level anytime soon. But definitely like broad segments can be treated a little differently and a lot of the e-commerce type of offers if you see are essentially merchandising offers, they are not really sponsored by the platform itself. Typically the way these things work is like you have a set number of such discounts you can offer to some consumers. So maybe they are selectively offered to Priority set people who would have a higher chance of converting. So there is an opportunity loss associated with you know, merchandising offers as well. So if we have hundreds such discounts to give away, which at the hundred consumers whom we should offer this because if you give it to somebody who’s not going to respond to this or who would have anyways converted within the offer there is a opportunity loss associated with it which translates to conversion and revenues.

Rajesh: For this, platform needs to know the customer very well. It was like giving an offer if I’m going to buy it anyways, there is no reason to give me a discount. What is the input that is required and what is the data that is required for driving these out?

Bibaswan: Yeah. Absolutely Rajesh, so as you mentioned, right so, you know identifying and analysing which users is and what kind of inputs as you mentioned. So things like purchasing these are kind of like the no-brainers like, you know, some kind of product Affinity or category affinity are there people who tend to gravitate towards certain classes of product, certain kind of kinds of merchants or sellers or maybe some specific types of experiences in terms of you know, be product offering that we have that’s kind of like the starting point. The second part of it, which is really integral is that we offer database or the on the levers that we have to drive conversion, we need to map those offerings with the you know user persona. If I may call it. It’s a Persona again is like a very broad term and I wouldn’t want to like generalize only on this aspect but you know mapping the user cohort with the offer cohort is the is kind of like Bridging the link and that is where you know, a lot of work also needs to happen alongside just identifying the user segments which are valuable.

Rajesh: Yeah, if we take what to secondly said of, marketing mix modeling, can you dig that a little bit like what exactly is it?

Bibaswan: Yeah, I think marketing mix modelling again is a very old. It’s been there for 40-50 years. It’s not new, it is just that it’s getting increasingly complicated now and that’s because of in an era where digital channels are like overwhelming all other forms of channels attribution is a huge issue, right? So there is a lot of attribution cannibalization. So people previously the approach was I have $100. I’m supposed to spend 40 on SEM, 30 on social, 21 Affiliates, 20 on something else and so on so forth. So that used to be you know attribution makes modelling and the end output was like a single Revenue number or a single gross profit ROI number that companies use to optimize towards. Now essentially the digital consumer is a single consumer since he or she can be reached across so many different touch points assigning the value that each channel is bringing in is an attribution problem. Right? So and there are multiple different attribution models available. Also, if you go into Google your last touch, direct, your weighted, you have cumulative sequential and number of things going on. And the problem right now is that this information can be overwhelming at times and a lot of these attribution models when applied in silos can paint a picture which is very different at times. So it’s so last touch non-direct attribution model can give you paint you a picture which is entirely different from what we are getting with a sequential rated model. So the challenge of finding which type of attribute is more aligned with the business model of a particular company and what really makes sense is where the Gap is. So a lot of companies and a lot of Brands initially start off with the simple last touch not direct and whatever Channel brought in the last converting traffic is the one that was responsible for it. And this is that decisions are taken how much we should invest. So just to give an example, I think since we are from, we have email is a very big deal for both of us, right so-and-so email for instance open on an email is Not tracked by Google analytics, right? So email is now we are going into the Realms of AMP email which are such Rich experiences on the body of an email and a marketer will spend time crafting the subject line to drive an open on the email. So, you know, typically, you know, you’ll have 30 percent open rate and probably like maybe 10% of those people will click through. It’s only the 10% who click-through will be able to compete with other attribution, you know channels so because that’s the you know, click which resulted in a session on the product and that’s what is tracked. So in the larger scheme of things it is going to seem that. Okay email brought in hundred customers, right? But effectively before that email brought in that traffic, there were thousand customers who opened that email by looking at a subject line so a rich landing page like experience on the email which is probably not even factored in while modelling in how much you should spend and when I say spend email you can show up show a promo code, you can have some gamification mechanics inside it which probably will get lesser investment vis-à-vis another Channel, which will have a higher A last touch not Direct attribution. So essentially what I’m trying to say is that in a digital world the leakages in an attribution funnel are many and very difficult to pluck. So marketing mix modelling is kind of like evolving along with it. So and now as I mention, I keep mentioning this because I’m passionate about this is like shoppable media, So many people are buying on live streaming in China. It is such a huge deal in in one hour, you have a million dollars worth of sales. How do you really attribute? Whether that you know that impression on that media, really? Only resulted in the purchase is it like sometimes Tam get the user complete the stream Beyond a certain point all of these elements will become super important and it’s a very tough Challenge and problem to crack.

Rajesh: And now you also have newer channels in emerging in India I think. Sometimes they’ve also seen the globe in WhatsApp, something which earlier was not there, but now it’s becoming less people with the reluctance of people to go in store, WhatsApp, not just engagement but even the ability to then convert and pay. When you are speaking, I’m reminded of many years ago used to talk about the challenges that Airlines faced in optimization. You have so many seats, how do I maximize the revenue. Someway, it’s a similar problem that our customers can buy y products, my goal is to maximize the revenue. In a way The challenge is somewhat different in the sense that the goal really should be that customers who are willing to pay full price, I don’t want to give them a discount. So actually it’s like a curve. This is actually very interesting. It’s a very new angle in the hole and was almost like personalized personalization of the buying experience or probably a little bit more than that. Why is it becoming such an important element, I mean this should really be they should be front and centre. Of course companies are collecting a lot of data now doesn’t seem to have that top of mind driving factor for CMO that as it should be. Why is it want to get front and centre?

Bibaswan: I think you know the reason is like, you know, people are still moving online. I mean, although it’s happening rapidly is just that these problems were always known, people were aware of it, but they somehow like we’re like backburner P2 P3. With now people moving online such a rapid pace and it’s even expected to like increase and then with the media mix also expanding rapidly with the new channels as we discussed, It’s really hard to be able to your deploy marketing dollars on marketing investment both in terms of resources. Like where should we hire more, how much we spend etcetera. You know these channels where previously you know, hire a social guy, higher paid media guy had an email guy. So now it’s like the social guy has to justify like you no one paid social I invested online, I invested in whatsapp, I invested on Facebook, I invest it somewhere on Instagram. All of these things similarly, like, you know, the Performance Marketing guy has like five six different channels in Southeast Asia for instance. In Korea, you have neighbour, So in in China you are doing on where to write in my thing is becoming big Microsoft Bing is taking share from Google. So essentially it’s becoming so fragmented. So decision making at that level, it’s like exploding essentially. So the complexity of the channels has increased, more people are now online. So effectively the deployment is shifting from you know, on traditional media channels to online media channels and so the combination of these two things are bringing this problem more upright you moving on the Forefront and that’s why it’s becoming discussed more. 

Rajesh: If a company wants to mark on this journey. I’m as the CMO, I think that you know what his ideas make a lot of sense that this is the direction we should be going. How do they get started on this journey? What is the personalization stack or something?

Bibaswan: I think that’s a really important question. So in my mind the personalization stack at the heart of it is the user base, right? So you have to know who your customers are and so I would say the segmentation capability be it a tool or be it some in-house capability that you are built. The ability to really like cohort has users is like at the at the heart of this whole stack. This has to be married with some kind of offer management system, which is where your loyalty programs, cash backs, VIP programs, coins, credits discounts, whatever else it is, and these two need to be linked at the hip. So the segmentation engine and the offer management or Revenue management engine need to be linked. These two need to be now linked with what we call the multi-channel exposure. So great. We know which customer needs to be given what offer but it was not going to work till the time we are able to amplify this message consistently and by that we need the multi-channel aspect of the Omni-channel hub as we call it. So email, app notifications on platform, banners, be tool tips on the product, Facebook, custom audiences Google remarketing list as there are so many line audiences, we chat audiences so everything right? So if whatever supports our user level marketing that should be covered by this omni-channel hub. So these are the three things which are at the base then on top of all of this. I think what is important is orchestration, right? So it’s one thing to really be able to send messages to Consumers across multiple channels and it’s a totally different capability to be able to craft it as a journey, right? So to ensure that the channels are in sync. So if somebody has made a purchase we need to like take him out of an audience or maybe you first activate your free channels before you go to the paid challenge. What is the right amount of delay that needs to be baked in before we activate an aggressive promo code for coupon code, right? Because there’s Revenue loss. So that is the orchestration component of it with sits alongside essentially your own nature. So it’s not only about sending the right message to the right customer across the right channels, but also being able to craft it in a way that it is consistent and orchestrated. And you know, if I had if I had to draw it all of this is at the heart and there is a big circle surrounding it which is AI personalization. So across all of these aspects we Channel makes the offer as I said like offer management system is the is the upper management system But what is the next best offer has to be doing by AI similarly the you know the content, The recommender system will drive so this bubble of AI driven personalization essentially surrounds the four components that I just booked a bomb. So segmentation, offer management, omni-channel orchestration surrounded by AI driven personalization is the stack that we have to build.

Rajesh: Great. Fantastic overview on how to get going with it. As a marketer which are the most important metrics? So in every place the key question becomes how I’m going to do all of this, how do I track the ROI of all thi How is the impact, incremental impact, how can we measure?

Bibaswan: Yeah, I think this is you know, as complicated a problem as the first part that we just discussed but so I mean again there are existing Frameworks to all of this. I mean, there’s no rocket science. You have Target group, control group. We can do multivariate testing we test all of this. So this has been discussed to death. So what is important to understand here is that, you know companies, you know at the at the top management level there needs to be very few things that the management needs to be even looking at if we cannot have a lot of granular metric. So for instance a CMO should not be looking at open rates or click rates. It’s very counterproductive. So to bake incrementally into that stakeholder level of the management level metric that people are looking at is very important. So incremental Revenue can be one such thing or you know that we are looking at an incremental Revenue being computed as Target versus control or the sum total of all the experiments that we are doing. Having said that I’m totally cognizant that it’s not possible to maintain Target groups and control groups across all channels that is where it gets a little muddy. But at the same time there are multiple techniques that can be applied and some of them can be like seasonality analysis to like take out a baseline some pre/post although it is very ridiculed likely pre/post analysis doesn’t make sense. Pre-post analysis can make sense if done correctly and external variables are netted out. This is especially true for channel where as I mentioned. You cannot keep a control group, right? So for SEM for instance you can, for email you can, push notification you, can but what about let’s say affiliate marketing our view keep a control group in affiliate marketing what about SEO? You cannot keep a control group or a person typing in organically. In such cases the traffic can be segregated post-hoc after the you know, intervention has happened to get a sense of what was the uplift from a baseline to get a sense of incrementally and these things when netted out together can be presented in the form of an incremental Revenue not start the company looks like okay. This is where we started this quarter. That as a baseline, This is where we would have anyways got into and our interventions resulted in X percentage incremental. So this was all the first level at the management level. So at then at the next level the challenge is to like really attribute that Implementality to the various things that we have done. So at times for instance when I spoke about on Omni Channel campaign, for instance, we are sending an email sending push showing a banner XYZ. Maybe it’s the banner which had a disproportionate impact right but at that program level will be able to compute the incremental Revenue by keeping a control group saying that this program generator. Republican Congress, but if I have to like now a portion what portion of this hundred thousand was driven by the email what portion by the push and what portion by the banner it gets it becomes a more complicated exercise but it is still possible in this in today’s world because we are capturing so much data, but the right framework has to be developed and  then the output has to be, you know done in a way where people can actually make use of this data to craft future programs. So yeah, I mean, I don’t really have a you know, kind of like an answer which is going to sum all of it if it’s pretty complicated but to I think to summarize at the management level it is important to not be fixated on N number of granular metrics which are not important to day-to-day running of the function or the business but at a marketer level the channel that you own, you need to go down to a lot of detail we have to figure out what is working. So it’s kind of like a dichotomy. So, you know, you know at the same time you need high level metrics at the same time you need very granular metrics. The ones that are dangerous are the ones in Middle. That’s what I do believe. So the ones in the middle are things like opened its click rates, they conceal more than that they speak about so from the management point of view, they should avoid these, they should look at the incremental revenue. And if you are a marketer who is actually focused on email marketing you need to look a lot Beyond open rate of liquid. So extremes is where we need to be at.

Rajesh: It’s very interesting what you’re describing the new emerging world of customer engagement and martech. Is almost like the evolution that at take the word of ad tech went into, how it began earlier, all you calculate was a clicks and so on and then there’s a whole new science that came into the world of ad tech and the same thing is now coming into the world of marketing. So essentially it’s not just about seeing how many transactions you got or what retention you’re getting our what is the churn, but there’s a lot of science now coming into transactional level, Did you get the right amount of money that you should have got from that transaction for that customer? It’s almost decisively. Are there examples of either companies or Industries, which you think are maybe are seeing early adoption of this much greater level than others. I mean for example in the world of personalization, in the offline world, and there was this famous story about casinos. You know how Hannah is actually used data, twenty five years ago, to maximize the revenue from the from their guests in terms of exactly which room to give and so on. In other Industries, which you think will be Pioneers are there companies which you think are pioneers in this, obviously amazon the names Etc. would be doing some of this.

Bibaswan: Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, it will be the same set of names who have been in the digital industry for quite some time and who have dominated of course, but in terms of Industries, I would say e-commerce is going to be the Pioneer, right? So because it has you know, and it’s not just Amazon was like a um, like a Visionary company, but now e commerce is Beyond Amazon like you have these Pockets your tokopedia in Indonesia. So many different companies that are getting into it. And for them this is a very important problem to crack so they are investing lots of resources. I am fortunate to be similar sector so I know the amount of impetus and focus that is there on these things. So I believe that is the sector that’s going to like lit the torch and everything else will follow this.

Rajesh: It’s also obviously very good news for end customers also, They get much more relevant first and this whole idea of almost prediction that the system can actually sense what you’re going to buy next.

Bibaswan: Yeah, actually, you know, you know, I could have said travel also, but I really don’t feel travel is going to be you know, traveling the true sense of the flights and hotels it is still very commoditized in that sense. Right? So and it’s an extremely hard problem to predict like where the consumer is going to buy the next flight to unless you are in that business Travelers are But again, my current company is not in the business of selling flights and we have you know thousands of SKU similar to an e-commerce platform essentially and these companies for them. It is like almost primitive to success that you figure out. You know, where can I find that pocket of opportunity to drive incremental conversion rate. So I feel these are the companies who will likely get the torch on this one.

Rajesh: Great. I think it’s a fascinating overview. I think probably the right way to describe what you’re saying is really the next generation of personalization. I mean it started with the low-hanging fruit. Now it’s the is the next Evolution as typically happens in technology data is collected as consumers become more Savvy as competition in there. Yeah, everyone stay ahead of the pack and I think you’ve given some very good examples of what companies can do to stay one step ahead of competition. And as we come to the closing part of our Sigmund the other what I call the five ones, so one future take or Trend that excites you.

Bibaswan: Yeah, I think I’ve already mentioned a few times Shopper will media is a very big deal. I mean I can I’m probably close to it because you know, China is a very important market for us and you know to be able to do and it’s not just not just live streaming, you know, AMP for email is also shoppable media. It’s essentially presenting more information to the consumer at the point of media consumption so previously, you know that email would have, you know, an activity card and the name of the activity, is not a product and the product name, but now you can have so much more information. It can expand out you can even start the purchase process there itself. So live streaming polls quizzes people can start the purchase one of them. I think it’s a very big Trend. It’s already happening in Southeast Asia and I think it’s going to be a big thing in the future.

Rajesh: Actually, tell us a little more shoppable media, the live streaming part because it’s not yet come to India, and I know a lot of words that describe it.

Bibaswan: Yeah, it’s a it’s a very simple concept. So again, it started off with the Advent of high-speed data. So in China you have these guys ecommerce companies who do these influential live streaming events. So effectively imagine a Virat Kohli, you know coming and talking about this favorite beard greens, right? So he maintains his beard and and Flipkart is let’s say, you know arranging that session and while he’s speaking about it like the pop-ups are coming like, you know at the bottom with as speaking on the same time stamp in real time that same product is coming up and people can. I think YouTube started this trend with the you know, the product placement at slightly of see right? So when Once the product is being mentioned in the video of the same card comes up below the video that people can buy now. This has  that was recorded video now says come to life screaming. It’s and it requires high speed internet. So for G, it was already getting supported and now 5G. It’s massive in China, you know, there are sales worth millions of dollars in a matter of minutes if a proper influence of comes and Talks about the right products similarly in Korea, it’s happening in Indonesian of very big deal are also in other markets looking forward to that.

Rajesh: I think it’s a it’s a fascinating new world that’s coming up. So one Tech trends that is disappointed you.

Bibaswan: Disappointed me. I have made it pain for this but I feel chat Bots are hype. I don’t believe they have delivered what they were supposed to and being on both sides of it both initially as a consumer and also later on when I wanted to activate it for marketing use cases, I realize that it has very specific use cases for consumer or customer support and some cases where the consumer is more information quickly, but as a marketing tool for demand generation as well as per team and after I feel it’s tight, it’s been a disappointing.

Rajesh: One good book recommendation.

Bibaswan: This is there is something I am currently reading. I’m halfway through it, but I really like it. It’s the name of the book is a man for all markets. I think it’s really fascinating. So his whole life is about probability Theory and how he’s applied to applied probability to variety of outcomes. So be it Blackjack, invested in the market, so it’s mostly his autobiography but also some part of investment advice and it’s a riveting book. I really like it.

Rajesh: One good person or podcast to recommend.

Bibaswan: I would recommend that people follow, this is very personal. I mean, it’s like depends on a person’s interest. But I tend to follow Hikaru Nakamura. He is like a Grandmaster in chess, Blitz chess and he has his own YouTube channel. He has his podcast and what is really fascinating about this guy is that chess players tend to have that image that they are geeky, very reserved and all of this. What Hikaru does is like in his YouTube channel. He has a side by side video. He is active online playing chess with a bunch of players is beating them of course. He’s a Grandmaster and at the same time while beating these players is talking about a very cool topic or a random topic on the side. So last I think two weeks back he was talking about Japanese who you’re showing pictures of various Japanese food that he likes and parallel he’s playing chess and defeating people and he’s calling out what mistakes they are making and also he’s a really amazing guy.

Rajesh: One key belief that sort of drives your life.

Bibaswan: Okay, This has been evolving quite a For me, I mean initially I started off with this guy who would plan for all previous scenarios have a plan ready, you know worst-case, best-case all of this and you know, as I have grown older I’ve realized that you know plan but we ready to ditch the plan also, it’s very important to improvise because we can see what’s happening around us right with covid. Nobody planned for this you cannot plan for this. So I think yeah, I think that’s my philosophy that it is really good to plan, it’s very important to plan but at the same time I don’t I try not to get married to my plan. So if the plan doesn’t start working I am I’m trying to like ditch it quickly and move on towards the next thing and improvise. So I think that’s a philosophy.

Rajesh: Great. So thank you very much Bibaswan. It was a fantastic conversation with you. I think you took us through what should be the next generation of personalization. I think it’s a win-win for both sides, both for customers and for businesses and I think given that we have compressed probably three or four years on e commerce growth, acceleration and also the data that’s available now for companies.

Bibaswan: Thanks for having me.

Rajesh:  That was Bibaswan on personalization in the new world that we are seeing. Thank you very much for having joined us MarTechno beat and look forward to seeing you again next week. Thank you.