Dennis Dayman: Industry Chief Data Privacy Officer
Welcome back everybody! Welcome to the Netcore Email Masterclass Series of the Email Unplugged podcast. I’m Dennis Dayman and I’ve been your host of these podcast series over the last several months and we are now in the middle of a new short series that’s been focusing on a lot of other areas. If you remember in our last set of series, you know we have focused on COVID-19 its impact on Brand and Marketers and we talked a lot about different things. But this short series is going to focus on one area at a time and you know things that that marketers get challenge with everyday.
We’re going to hopefully go deeper into those challenges and provide really actual insights and really bringing the experts that we have in the industry that would have been able to show those things. So setting this whole thing up to about data segmentation, right obviously specific to email as a channel, right? So let’s sort of like Define what segmentation is right? obviously specific to email as a channel, right? We know that segmentation is the act of taking new contacts and you know doing that but then to take an attribute or actions and sort of understanding of the more about sort of what interest that you might have.So for me, it could be shoes and shirt or cars and other things and these are all attributes that can be used to segment on or to put me into a different group, right, you know during the for love of email event.We had talked a little about segmentation in which you know brand sometimes can use that segmentation to do better targeting at me to say hey, you know, what we know you do you spell lot of money with us and as such we also want to offer you these cooler opportunities that others may not be getting right.
I think we also know that broadcast messaging is always been sort of the laziest and obviously most inefficient type of messaging that you can send in any business, right? You know, we call that fashion blast, it really obviously dehumanizes the prospect right? Nobody wants to to be that sort of person and you know, we always talk about sending the right message at the right time and the right person. So, you know, when you send these being abroad messages to people that say “Hi First Name, right, you know, I I just want to let you know what’s going on again people don’t appreciate that. So you know it for me as as a as a 25-year expert in this but I like to see messages that come in and say my name but you know more specific to what may be at practice in the past or what they already know based on say even in marketing automation. What I’ve been clicking on opening right and we are tending to see that a little bit on the social media side too. So I can’t really the primary goal of segmentation is you know, is that when you kind of figured out what that supposed to be. right that you’re actually speaking, you know to a specific set of group of people,
This podcast is going to be dedicated to building that case from that point that you know that you’re in the known that you continue to operate sending you to not just brought messages to your database. But again these targeted messages and obviously preventing deliverability fails and drops and unsubscribe rates and and things like that. So what I want to do now is I want to introduce to you our our expert first who is going to be Dela again just spoke to him at For the love of email event and he was one of our keynoter so welcome Dela Quist. You want to just quickly get a little bit of background and say who you are for others who don’t know anything about you yet.
Dela Quist: CEO, Alchemy Worx
My name is the Dela Quist and I’m one of those rare people like Madonna who just gets tickled by one day and everyone knows he that is so but just in case you didn’t know who our digital marketing agency, Alchemy Woxy this being involved in the email space since 2001 was when I found it and we have offices in the UK US Australia and production facilities in Manila in the Philippines. And basically we help brands. Basic Soup To Nuts with a email marketing program. So we help them get the best out of the technology that they purchased and and we all know that having tools and using them properly. And so we help with that as an agency. We’re very very focused on generating revenue for our clients and making sure that they get the best return on investment that we possibly can and we do a tremendous amount of segmentation as we tend to focus on mostly on behavioural segmentation over and above things like demographic segmentation, and we can go into that later on but really we we see segmentation is as a way of managing RFM properly.
And we focus on giving every individual a unique message specific to their taste. It’s about trying to get the biggest bang for the buck. We can get from each individual segments.
And that’s a really good content to start off with the end.
We’ll try to give him those here in just a second. As you said.
I also want to introduce everybody else, Chaitanya as well who you are and what you do for Netcore.
Chaitanya Chinta: Global Head, Email Business, Netcore
Thanks Dennis, Hi Guys I’m Chaitanya
I handle Email Business for Netcore, Globally. I was a co-founder at Product called Pepipost which is a part of Netcore’s product suite which is an Email API. And before I used to write spam filters and it’s been a long journey in Emails, that’s all about me.
Lets get to the basics, why does data segmentation matter and I’m sure that we’ve got a bunch of questions here will probably end up, you know hearing about other questions. Why does that Data Segmentations matter?
Data Segmentation is for Brands looking to maximize interactions with customers.
So we all talk about relevance and importance of relevant when it comes to email camping by marketers can expect most of their customer data uses mailbox today right now with multiple Brands competing for the attention, you know, getting an open or are you getting an interaction with the user is sort of limited. to understand the user new segment you you. You create a contact list on the interest and then and then send it to the user interactions to be higher. So that’s that’s the whole point of no introduction and have any Data Segmentation.
The way that we have seen Data Segmentation come across is that, while the western markets have heavily adoped to data segmentation early on, If I look at Eastern markets, regions like India, Malaysia or Indonesia, markteres there took some time to adopt,
I think we are 2 years behind the curve, but I think we are just there.
Dela is from the UK side. Let’s your opinion, How about that? How about the European side maybe?
Maybe you’re in the US? I would say it would be very hard to find a marketer in the market that says segmentation is a bad thing. And generally if you analyze your data and Target various messages to segments, you will get a lift.
I think we’re possibly I see things differently is is having looked at the data. So I try and understand what’s causing the left and how to get more out of it and we found some interesting stuff in the days around segment size. You know, you the bigger the segment size, largely the more reckon you can get out of that segments. Typically the the the the the problem is is the bigger the segment than the harder it becomes to make the content very specific to individuals.
So you’ve always got this segment. How do you get a million different pieces of individual level? So that that’s the balance is it is so soon is the segmentation about content vs. Segmentation about generating revenue, and my belief is an individual and I think the way you work as an agency in what icons pass to do is to try but Festival in generate the revenue. I think if you go to everyone writing in and say we love your email, but we’re going to stop by right the client wouldn’t be happy. A million different pieces of content to a different places is a very, very difficult to implement almost no one has that resource available to them.
So we’re always running that balance, right?
Does data segmentation, Does it depend on the type of platform that you are using?
What’s in the more basic things that you’re saying or should you be going somewhere with us with a really Advanced, you know statistically a scientific automata behind the platform is important, right?
The Platform is important! I mean, you know that I can you do this.So they understand what you’re getting into segments of one is where you customize a message to one particular user and it is very personal I think we’re going to be busy kind of scenario lab you have video looking at looking at a million user.
So when you’re talking thing that I don’t so getting them getting to that level of complexity I think adding is is in today’s in today’s scenario. It’s not completely dead yet. The largest segment is the inactives rights of people who’ve not open door clicked on an email in more than the pick a number right, but for the sake of this argument, I’m going to say I’m going to be really generous
So if you’re saying the number of people who have never purchased from you and never opened an email ever before all the last time they did was 120 days Plus or whatever it is. You don’t know anything about them and they will probably represent somewhere between 40 and 70% of your live. There are very very few times that I’ve ever seen who have 70 80 90 95% activity on the list to the level where you could get the knowledge to make a one-on-one. Personalized message right now.
If you take my two signs active buyers who opened within 50 days on a browse my web site, but three hours I can be really pissed over that segment but that segment is only 2% of my list. Right and then we go so so there’s two times active then we go to x inactive so they did they pull two times but have an open 420 days. Then we go one sunspots and one time I engaged and
I’m engaged and then we have a bulletin Geisha 90 days and I have to go through that we go to send two and a 6.2% 16.95% 70% of the list. So yes absolutely don’t want to one when you can when you have the knowledge but it’s very difficult. He’s actually broke out this the beginning of the process but drives the knowledge that allows you to get to on Swann.
That’s how I would describe it. So you start with a bunch of people that you know, nothing about except that they they signed up for your email. You don’t know anything yet enough about them to do anything about it. They don’t visit your website often enough for you to have brass Behavior.
So you stop by trying to trigger an activity by sending a more General message mayve more personalized – message puslice to maybe buy a towel.
Beginning of it what are some of the things that people can be doing maybe at that capture? Your area bright is it asked me this little questions or is it, you know, then attempting to take you know pass purchase date of that.
They already might have one you especially for going from I’m actually in the middle of putting a bunch of old marketing materials and stuff that I’ve come in the mail the last year or so. I’ve been watching but you know, if you’re shopping in brick-and-mortar all the time, but now it’s boba time now going online and for what we talked about in the Netcore podcast series specific basic level two segmentation that marketers could be doing at that form and then you know from there, you know, maybe we can get a more advanced for the stuff for the basic Could they be doing right now?
You probably be aware that there’s a huge trade-off between how much they can you capture the queen to subscription. And remember I took that people who have them both yet.So we don’t have the pictures they do we don’t have that credit card. We don’t know where they live. They just signed up to the email for whatever reason because they love your brand because they’re crazy because they like email. I took her right mind. And there’s a huge trade off every additional question you put in to try and make the segmentation will drop the conversion rate for the number people signing up by a massive Factor.
So for every individual brand, my recommendation would be to say is the rise in knowledge that you will get. The points of perch at the point of sign up right in terms of future value more than the drop-off intensive these people don’t sign up to your list because they go forward halfway through feeling in the demographic profile that will give them to you to believe the
And if you don’t look at that, then you would rather have three attempts or five attempts or a Year’s worth of attempts to learn something about you didn’t have you once and done go away and don’t sign up and then go and sign up to someone else. You just ask for an email address who’s the competitor around the corner. So that’s the trade-off the time of signing with you.
At the signup if you push users to give more details, they might move away. Do you think any messaging in the welcome programme?
Do you think its ok to collect some data? as a part of the welcome programme would benefit the brand?
Interesting! My whole life is about making lives easier.
It’s so send data right to give you a sense of what I’m talking about. So the numbers I was giving you in terms of the percentage of the list. Let me give me an example to open rate for your engage but never bought people rights of these are people you don’t know very much about they’ve opened within the last 60 days or whatever it is, but they never posted somewhere in the region of 13 14% Okay with your face, very favourably with engage 2 * 5 to a 15% Okay. So you’re like, wow so enough about them to personalize you don’t stopped doing is look to see who opens each of those individual wants and I’m 15% is a pretty good open. Right?
Right, cuz I reach out I’ll live with that, especially from your own edible before so I prefer to learn I prefer every email I sent to be a learning opportunity for future segmentation and targeting to stop from day one. So Dennis I feel but what you describe is perfect getting in the way of good right and that’s all the princesses and I’m just saying if you take that approach that I want to send the message until I know enough and therefore I must find out I think that’s perfect getting in the way of good.
But if you say look it’s supposed to sign. And then you and the welcome program that I’m going to mail them three times a week. Does that makes sense? into these guys and I’m getting an open rate to 15% that tells me that I’m going to learn what whatever 75000 people every time I send an email I going to tell me something new by what they opened and clicked on. Then you can build two segments and I find that will end by the way the other thing about that is that The problem with the dangerous segmentation to the put ^ 1 is when making assumptions and it’s very very hard to introduce someone something new if you only tell them things that you know, they want to hear right so when you accidentally send your let’s say for the sake of argument, let’s say you accidentally send your swimsuits He sent me find a whole bunch of people that you never knew about genes from you, but always will send his son Levi jeans and you’ve learned something new.
So that’s the other reason why I take this with a slow learner proposal rather than Learn perfect things and then mail them with that.
You know, I think I think we’re looking at maybe more value. We would have signed at that point, some point, to a contact of an asset. information that we know about the individual weather was title or propensity to buy or this or that I don’t even like because an eloquent like we supposed to be getting more than B2B area like we would also added value to the company, you know that you are associated with right and then whether or not your title just had manager director VP or a different and you know people using platforms like that then say OK, I know that 50 points needs to text messages. I want to send and you know hundred points these messages but I think it should be sent. It’s like I was like, you know, you should be sending email regardless, right?
You know, it did come in and it just give me a real basic. So, you know what other information than part of the job is to nurture them stood at marketing me know if you know area and to be able to walk there opens in their cliques and put up their conversion rate than even over to the website and sail to shopping for product a more than he’s shopping for product A that product C so we now know a little bit Bottom switch can segment and better and say hey, we’re only going to send them some stuff about A right unless he you know, unknowingly, you know, if they’re open and clicks tells us something different ormaybe today, you know that you’re looking at this we want to learn more about and if you fill it out will give you 10% off your next purchase.
Try pushing them down that that bypass right? So don’t waste any but you know, it can’t be better and segmentation, you know throughout that you want to bring up there.
Chaitanya, would you like to add to that?
Absolutely. Absolutely agree with you.
Not to stop Sending unless I have you know, I have knowledge about to use a completely you should definitely start sending you messages and then try to understand by stitching whatever data that we that we can pull I mean whether if is from email activity. I just go ahead and say that you can pull data from a website and app and anywhere with the user is Lexi browsing right understanding browsing habits.
And and if it if you switch all of that together, I think we we can we can get with and this is that basis that we that we talked about the Yes, we talked about a story all together. So it is a toddler that mean that we talked about is it mostly about the users who are when you have history and then you start building right kind of segments of the band. So I see I see I see an advantage of taking Body up with the saying that you know, you have data around a user you you better you know, I meant of campaigns and but you don’t have you tried to construct a different kind of messaging to gather interests and then and then you
Adding them to the music. Where you have more data around. So do you think I just found my perspective views?
You see that from the database we have history we can because of the custom messages that we’re building you get better ROI and we don’t have data enough. So we find to build that data and then getting them into the group so that you know, we can reconsider its maximum ROI
I was actually trying to pull out some information that would kind of help with this….. What we put out a case study recently. I’m happy to share it later on if anyone wants to see it when looking at the 12-month online revenue for customer right even answer that forwhat the value is of an non openeris someone your not mail it right because everyone has depression files.
So we’re able to see what the revenue is from customers who are not on the email program because they chose not to or whatever. It is the value of a customer over 12 months of someone who isn’t mailed to this particular client was $115, okay. But the value of people who received emails but never opened a single one in 12 months with $457.
Now here’s the thing if you move, they open an email Jumps from $457 to $771 to use if I’m up right now so I very much see this is a funnel and so I end my view has always being is that at the top of the funnel it’s really hard to do segmentation another bottom of the funnel. It’s very very easy to do segmentation. Kind of the progression that we thinking about. So at no stage am I saying you do what you done with segments and I’m sure you guys are saying the same thing but it’s about where do you stop taking it in?
And my view is you stop from saying I know nothing and build the knowledge, but when you send emails that are lined with patched or unsegmented, The purpose behind that is to learn something does that does that make sense?
So I would even argues it at least once a month. Even with the people, you know the most about you should send them something that you don’t believe what you don’t know about them that they would buy right because that’s a living on Fitzhugh to see if you do it sensibly enough like once a month or a couple times a cool shower or something like that then actually giving someone something that is unpersonalized May deliver. You new opportunities inside. I don’t hit that said enough in conversations about segmentation
I would I would 100% agree with you on that actually right is that you are missing opportunities with me as a buyer. If you may not be doing a little bit of next marketing if you will within those messages right that you’re the first 50 to 60% might be about the segmentation that you’ve learned about that individual and put a what they’ve been through buying but somewhere else in there, you know, I have an offer right about a different product red different color.
Whatever that is, right because you will find that sometimes in my wife always laugh. Feels like we were talking about cars again, but we can put a talking about cars and this one, you know car that that when driving by with the new color that I should have already fallen in love with you know, she would look at me when I said that’s the color I’m looking for it you like I would have never picked that out for you and I’m like I would have never thought the same thing because actually I went to a BMW driving school couple years ago. And that’s one of the colors they had and I have never really been shown that because it was a special order and all that sort of stuff and it now is not for opportunity for the next week in my pocket.
So people understand that the idea that data segmentation isn’t just about only sending the stuff that were always one thing right, you know, there is an opportunity for conversions in for up sales and we thought out at you know, I didn’t know I needed that. In fact, we see that in Amazon, right, you know an Amazon every time that I order something these days. I’m going to order something. I’m also offered or usually will say hey other people have also
Blindness with and you’re like crap. I didn’t think about that or hey, I might need that if that’s a pretty good idea neat idea, right?
So that does work right? Dela…
Yes, I’m I’m curious one of the things that we use segmentation for a loss at Alchemy Worx. That’s how come he works is actually about Cadence, right? We use segmentation to identify who we can send more email to okay and conversely the people that maybe you would send less email. So so there’s two things go once for deliverability reason than the other ones for a revenue reason. And what we found is that a challenge anybody I challenge anybody to show me a segmentation strategy, right?
The one email. Okay, that will generate more Revenue than resending the same email to everybody right because The number of emails you sent us in the Cadence actually probably matters more in terms of Revenue than anything else. Now, it comes our problems deliverability. So, you know my hashtag dubi small or if you want me to be rude, I’ll say hashtag. Don’t be stupid. Right? If I say send more email.
That doesn’t mean you’re going to send everyone an email every day until your list because that’s no small. But if you say, you know something this person has just opened weed in the last 15 days. I know there’s a high propensity to them by based on my knowledge. I can send that Fakemon $28 a month, right and you go out great. So actually one of the things we use Tatian for most and we find more effective is the Kaden stroke frequency Trump’s content in terms of Does that make sense that I was sending five emails a month to okay this very little segmentation that I could do. That would be sending that segment two ceiling they would take it 10 email. Would you guys agree with that or is that? Listen to go to Highland a segment that’s opening at 20% Right and you were making them five times a month and you double that to 10 times a month you open right or maybe will draw them to drop down from 20% to maybe 15% or 12% or something like that.
You’ll get more open small clicks and more revenue from sending that segment NP pen emails. Then you will by sending five times. Yep, that’s what I like to see if that’s what we see so actually huizar segmentation to really manage the balance between planning.Your lifestyle does not make sense and deliverability problems and generating revenue and we found the we identify segments based on how much email tolerance how much email they like getting on WE focused on yeah that that’s what we found.
So it’s just kind of getting near the So then I got some interesting point that you made right.
I’m using data segmentation to identify the right frequency for for a particular user to send emails to write a very important learning for For a lot of Marketeer out here and Indian southeast Asia because it’s usually look at the determination here deliver content that the right way but not from a frequency perspective in my opinion
That was interesting! But I curious from a segmentation standpoint. This has been, you know where the years and deliverability and saying the fact of again if you’re sending the right message of the right time with the right person, right?
Do you see a difference in deliverability inbox vs.Junk or maybe even up scribe the stuff right, you know, do you tend to see people’s unsubscribing less because they’re getting what they want.
And even when your segment even based on your date and time which scientific policy best views, but what do you see around that?
The way we see it, we use segmentation for 2 purposes for deliverability and we deliver max ROI for the customer important facets to the whole segmentation as a piece.
I think what’s happening. So what we do, depending on the type of the user let there be a business basis as a user who’s worth more than money into an active zone-read where we have less and less knowledge about the use and I think I think after a number of tries to understand what user is what user is interested in. I think it’s the frequency of science obviously go down and at some point of time we we have a sunset Define I think having this the right why we’re trying to understand the user but there’s only so much you can do to actually, you know, what’s different types of content that your band offers but if your is still not interested in the type of condom that you’re sending at some point you have to you have to make the call to say that lets users and it’s no more interested in my bag and then I have to show your face them out. I think having that kind of balance along with along with the kind of each segment on this side.is actually opening and clicking under demanding that I can a frequency or I can understand that needs to needs to be still needs to play in in in in sink to you know, actually get the maximum benefit in my opinion.
I think that hit his has the thing that’s kind of interesting right? So I absolutely agree that if you were to take your inactive segment right and stop mailing them. Hey 3 times a week typically Millions. So, you know if a million this statement is going to be it could be as many as a hundred thousand but let’s just say for the sake of argument is 500,000 people, right?
Number is it I can do a quick calculation based on real numbers. I’m kind of disguising client numbers so that no one would be able to identify the last night for the sake of argument. You’ve got five hundred thousand people who never bought for me that you don’t know very much the opening at 2% right that’s delivering you 20,000 new engaged people every time you mail that segments, right? that increases the value of those people from being $0.20 a year to $2.
That’s a 10x Improvement in the value lifetime value of the 12-month value of a customer when you mail that segment, right? So again, this is a hashtag DBS movie small bearing in mind that a lot of people emailing to three times a week, right and then must I could customize the getting 10 15 20 a month. Okay. I’m the most engaged companies that getting that number and everyone is getting less. That’s the funnel that you drive…Kind of how you start so and you know more than I that you don’t take those 500,000 people and just send that email. I you basically said, okay, I’m sending I don’t know anything about I sent three emails a week out. I’m sending 20 emails a month out of 25 emails a month.
But this is only going to get three or four emails a month. You just face it neat. Mail them in small batches. Does that make sense? You manage the deliverability you do you do be smart right and resistance about snowshoeing a tool because I can tell you now that you three times by as you have an open 420 days. Segments open right is lower than the one engage people, right?
You’ve never bought from you. So when you mail a segment that says all these are two times by their valuable, there’s a proportion of that list that opens at a very very low rates. But because he was sending the whole mailing out. It doesn’t cause your deliverability problem and I would say the same thing deliverability is a key issue. You have to be very wary about it. When you’re trying to reactivate people bring people out from the $0.20 a year value to the $2 a year value and then up to the $20 a year is how he was just where they become when they become two times engage fully Velvet Rope customers, right? So it’s not progressing that United young and you do have to do you learn as you go along and subject lines make a big difference, right?
If you can change your open rate of you up in octaves from 2% to 3% you’ll now delivering a new ten thousand more people turning them active and increasing their body and Rose improving your deliverability around because you go more engaged users rather than hunting dates uses. So in summary, I see segmentation and frequency as a very very careful balance that we spend a lot of time managing. Does that make sense? We don’t just go. Oh, yeah just send these people any on email not we focus on what we send them.
We trying to learn from what we send them. But we also try to make sure that we manage the risk because there is a tremendous amount of value in those on engage people and they’re coming across at a very low cost compared to acquisition which is another part of the cell fake which everyone wants to say I go Are you happy? You’re happy. It’s at by someone on your inactive list.
From Google right through paid search at twenty bucks, but you won’t send them an email at $0.20 to try and convert them. And that’s the balance that I try and make to see them as being a valuable segment. I actually think the inactives is serve the same treatment as my Velvet Rope customers.
I really do intensive effort! Respect. The deliverability for who they are for Revenue. I think there is important to segment. Is anyone else because all the other segments come out to the people we know nothing about
So let me stop you there because we’re a little bit of her time. So I think it’s a really good good good idea to wear the close up here on that. Listen to I want to thank you guys very much for being a part of this right again. Let you know this podcast series that Netcore has put together the last couple months that because it is his been receiving a lot of rave reviews and praises because they’ve been able to take the opportunity of with our guests like yourselves and and and bring it real actual items to them to understand sort of what they’re you know what I need to be doing.
So I want to thank you too for being a part of this email Master Class Series I want to also thank the listeners here for being a part of this one as well. We know what we’re doing this email unplugged my podcast and really I hope it does have been listening to really learn how you can put a breakdown the complexities and have heard about the details about what really segmentation can be and what it should not be in as Dela made some very good points that you know, not you know, always Send email right to the point of when it’s time to segment.
Don’t forget about those that they have not been segmented.
But hopefully that’s in those actual items that you can take back and Implement into those email programs that will help you eventually acquire more customers over time. Maybe if you came here to the Netcore for the love of email event.
We talked quite a bit about it, but right now until now until September 2020 you have the opportunity to be able to send Unlimited Emails through Netcore.co
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You can listen to it on Spotify iTunes Google play Stitcher and many other places and other places and again, you can just go right to Netcore.co